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USA Field Hockey Junior Mens, Womens Teams Fall to Argentina  x48
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| US Field Hockey |
December 16, 2004
US Field Hockey Association
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USA Field Hockey Junior Mens, Womens Teams Fall to Argentina
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. The junior mens and womens teams from Argentina handed the young U.S. field hockey squads a double set back as the pre-tournament favorites scored victories over the USA in their respective tournaments in Santiago.
The Argentina women defeated the USA junior team, 5-2, while the Argentina men topped the U.S. under-21 men, 8-1. With the loss the U.S. women fall to 0-2-1 in the four nation tournament that also includes Chile and Canada. The USA men drop to 0-2 in a three-nation, double round-robin event with Argentina and Chile.
After giving up a quick goal in the second minute of play, the young U.S. team played the favored Argentines even before tying the game in the final minute of the half. Lauren Crandalls (Doyelstown, Pa./Wake Forest Univ.) goal gave the U.S. a short-lived draw, however Argentina answered immediately and connected on a penalty corner in the final seconds of the half to take a 2-1 halftime lead.
Katie Grant (Lehighton, Pa./Duke Univ.) tied the game with her third goal of the tournament early in the second half, but Argentina took the lead for the final time two minutes later. Argentina added two additional goals at the end of the game to clinch the top seed in the crossover round with a perfect 3-0 record.
The USA will meet Argentina again on Saturday in the tournament semifinal while second seeded Canada will meet third-seeded Chile in the other semifinal.
On the mens side, Argentina scored five first half goals to coast to the victory and a 2-0 mark in the three-team tourney. Argentina defeated Chile 12-0 earlier in the tournament.
The USA meet will take on Chile in the second round of the double round-robin series on Friday.
Dec. 16 at Santiago
Argentina 5, USA Jr. 2
ARG: 15 (FG, 2:00)
USA: Lauren Crandall (FG, 35:00)
ARG: 6 (PC, 35:00)
USA: Katie Grant (PC, 41:00)
ARG: 13 (FG, 43:00)
ARG: 11 (FG, 51:00)
ARG: 9 (FG, 66:00)
USA Starters: Katie O'Donnell, Katie Grant, Michelle Kasold, Katelyn Falgowski, Amy Stopford, Dana Sensenig, Lauren Crandall, Kristen Madden, Lauren Powley, Rachel Dawson, Katherine Blair (GK)
Subs: Laura Suchoski, Jamie Whitten, Christine Suggs
Cards: USA-Kasold (Y, 68:00)
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Comments on this article
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USFHA What a Joke
12-17-2004 1:17 pm
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I am sorry to hear that the girls lost i am sure they put in a lot of time and gave 100%.
My questions is where are all the Tracey Fuchs supporters now? I thought she was going to be the USA coaching godess?
By the talent on the team which i have seen some of them they should have won at least a game. Is it the coaching???
I would think so.
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Jacko
12-17-2004 1:49 pm
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Poor Performance
I had hoped for better things from the young men but expected a significant loss against Argentina but hoped for a victory over Chile.
I am not in Santiago but am not sure how badly the young women and men are being beaten. Is there a significant skill level difference between the US women and Argentina , better tactics or more match experience.?
How do we improve...what is required to move into the top ten at both men and womens level. We have spent a lot of money on elite teams ovet the past 3 years and succeeded in nothing . The mens ranking has fallen into the mid 20's and the women spent 1 million dollars and failed to qualify for the Athens Olympics.
Current USFHA leadership seems to have its head in the sand..and continues with the same strategies that have moved them nowhere. Doing the same thing and expecting different results is lunacy.
Do we need to send half of these young players to Australia.Holland or Germany where they can play hockey 30 weeks a year and develop the game skills necessary to compete.
Thoughts and comments please
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cali
12-17-2004 8:14 pm
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to usfha jokster
why are you so quick to blame us coaches and tracey...are you another international coach that thinks they are going to contribute to our hockey world? you seem to not have grasped the system here yet...it does take time. but time is not on your side is it?
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FH Dad
12-17-2004 9:42 pm
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Give 'em a chance
From what I'm hearing, the girls have been very competitive in every match, leading agaist Chile, leading against Canada, tied w/ Argentina through 43 minutes... just not finishing the second half of the games. For many of these juniors, this is their first "big-time" international competition, and they are learning what it takes. I expect much different results come March in Puerto Rico. Yes, they need more training time together, and more "quality" competition.
Also, give Tracey a break. She's seen more international competition (from the TURF) than any other individual in the US. Give her a year to develop our girls (with Nick and Justine's help) and I believe they'll be ready for the Jr World Cup, back in Santiago. And, they will be VERY hungry to avenge the losses from this year...
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interesting
12-18-2004 6:16 pm
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Well, I can't say much about the women's team, but I expected these results regarding the boys team. Due to the selfishness of the Harris family and making the majority of the players not to practice with Shiv, you are now seeing the results. They now lack the discipline and organization that Shiv would have implemented long ago. They may have some relatively skillful players on the team, but they do not have the leadership abilities to lead a team; attitude has been a major downfall for this team. Since Shiv was not able to build up the individual players, what can he possibly do. He is certainly pressed for time. For the upcoming Jr. Pan Ams, I certainly think that Argentina, Canada, Chile, Cuba, and Mexico to finish ahead of US team. The team lacks the defensive skills to control the opposing forwards. Look for a long and difficult road for the team.
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mj
12-18-2004 9:50 pm
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there is nothing no to do against the bad thing that is!
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Peter Munsing
12-18-2004 10:29 pm
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Travel broadens the mind
Certainly for the young men, being able to play with foreign clubs would do them a world of good. I don't know enough about college level women's hockey to say if women would also benefit from travel, though I thought the FIH feld that in the US women's participation was far ahead of other countries.
I think perhaps the problem is that at an early age girls spend less time on dribbling and stick skills, and we also have more grass pitches used by the early agers than other countries.
Our men's program is obviously hampered by the difficulty young men at high school level have in playing especially in the off season. Just going to a country where they aren't viewed as abnormal, or a threat to "the sport as we know it," is a relief for those who've gone.
There are only a handful of cities where boys can play in clubs, and even then it's only a day or two a week--compared with six days a week in Europe, and that most of the year.
Problem is finding contacts overseas, and the short summer season in Europe for east coasters.
Girls have more off season opportunities than boys, but even there play is usually, at best, twice a week. Many girls switch to soccer in the spring, and may play a third sport in the winter.
We are a huge country with play on parts of each coast, little play outside of colleges in the interior, and none in many states. The club system is very fragile, with no club that I'm aware of having their own dedicated pitch as they do in many other countries.
I think it would be great if pfh could interview those in the know and puplish an article as lengthy and detailed as Shiv's, on how those countries made their climb. Perhaps Shiv could provide a writer with the information for a longer and more detailed look at the state of US field hockey--a sort of reverse ghostwriting.
Perhaps if the US teams could spend a bit more time playing some of the clubs here and in Canada, and yes, overseas would definitely be a great tuneup--if a rude awakening.
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Observer
12-18-2004 11:31 pm
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This team does not represent the best US u21's
OK look at the roster. Enough said. So many good college u21's not even on the roster, instead we go with the greatest high school players we can dream of(haha) Wow I won't even name names but with the greatest HS youth players ever shouldn't they score a goal in this tournament. How many years have these young girls been on the team(Suggs, Falgowski, Kasold et al.). This team as constructed has no chance to qualify for the Jr world cup, they won't even finish in the top three in the Pan ams. Please look at the mess you have created with the ridiculous selections. I could go player by player and point out the flaws but I won't because the girls shouldn't get killed here. They just can't cut it. Great job to the college girls Katie Grant, Dana Sensenig, Lauren Crandall shows you why we should have experienced players not just great hype HS players. USFHA leave this sport alone rise up people boycott USFHA don't give them any funding and stop supporting the lousy selection system. Look at the GKing it obviously stinks. A backup to another u21 at UVA and a lower IVY teams goalie. Wow ! Have a real tryout and get the best 11. Many of the girls here are not even close to being good enough.
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yvette
12-19-2004 3:23 pm
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coach
does any one know when the new national team coach will be named?
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MiliARG
12-19-2004 7:57 pm
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The result of the match between Arg and US was 7-0 and not 5-0.
If your team is beaten by 7 goals of difference, there is an obvious skill and tactic diference. I can't understand why USA can't improve in hockey. Come on! YOu are in USA! In that country the goverment take real importance to the sport.
Argentina's goverment has improve the conditions to train to the hockey teams but despite of the economical situation there is a reality: that argentina is a top team and Usa isn't. Here there is a good work with the Juniors, they compete in the local league with the top players. We have a long history in hockey, we have passion, skill, good trainers and excellent players. And hockey is also is becoming more and more popular, maybe is the top women's sport. There are thounsands of players in the country. THe time will give to USA a better perfomance.
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USFHA What a Joke
12-20-2004 8:03 am
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To Cali
I am not an international coach. If i was i would have put in for the job. I would never have gotten the job as it was a done deal already. Why post the job if you are going to give it to someone? It just amazes me that all these people were in this forum a few months ago stating how Fuchs is the answer. Well she is not. Is it hard for people to just accept that she was given this job and did not deserve it. Why would you give the future of your program to a coach who has no track record as a coach and has not coached even a college team. (A college coach would be better than Fuchs)
See this is my problem with USFHA. Bad organization, back door deals (Fuchs is a great example) and general lack of responsibility to every playing, coaching, umpiring, parent and donating member.
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b
12-20-2004 10:34 am
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Pitch development
One example from Europe - the Hockey Association loaned several clubs half of the cost of laying an artificial pitch. The clubs provided the other half through fundraising etc. Once the pitches were built the clubs rented them out whenever they weren't using them for hockey and soccer. The rentals covered the running costs and repaid the Hockey Association loans in 5-10 years.
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enough
12-20-2004 10:37 am
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to uswhat a joke
a joke you are - so your not an intern. coach - your not this and your not that....you are just a hater of tracy fuchs - who you do not know at all - I suspect you are a T.B. fan or maybe her actual asst that was - you can not give her or anyone a chance. Who can beat argent. anyway - no one as yet - and not one coach below them has done it. they are the best and thats that.... these young girls have tried their best and with the likes of you for support - it will be hard - how dare you say the GK stinks - what a thing to say - you are a person who needs help. and don;t be giving us " we have every right to opinions etc etc" thank god that "imag. daughter of yours" does not exist.
whether fuchs was given the job or not - you would not be better than her - because, you see, a team could not be with you w/ your negativity.. get a job and get rid of the jealousy. you couldn't be from the U.S. - i can't imagine an american being so un-supporting. how do the aussies say "good dy"
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USFHA What a Joke
12-20-2004 2:11 pm
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To Enough
NO i am not the former Asst coach and you should really what your accusations you might get people blacklisted or faulsly quoted. (Sorry people dont get blacklisted by USFHA my bad)
Point me to the link where i said the GK stinks? I have never spoken badly of any younger player in this forum.
You must be a Fuchs supporter and if you are you are who most of these people in this forum are telling to pull your head out of the sand. It is not just Fuchs it is the whole association.
No i am not American but I have seen a lot of hockey and know that this system is bad for many reasons, but if you know hockey then you would know the reasons why it is bad unless your head is in the sand?????.
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Wow!
12-20-2004 2:15 pm
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re: enough
You are an angry, angry person...this is a forum for discussion. It has been created for comments and debates to exsist, for ideas to develop and people to have a better and truer sense of the happening in hockey whether it be US or foreign.
btw...Observer was talking about the goalies not What a Joke!
And being someone who knows TB's old assistant coach, I know she would never write anything negative about a group of young women or men playing hockey. You should apologize for your false accusation. You know what they say about assuming...well guess what, that is you right now.
It's your own negativity that needs to get into check. Perhaps you should either stop reading this webpage or take some anger management classes.
Good luck to the young men and women in Chile...keep moving forward...it's the experience you get out of the tourney that counts...use it to make you better players. It's just too bad the USFHA is the way it is. Until something better is created this is the way that hockey in the US will be. Good luck.
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just me
12-20-2004 2:49 pm
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I also feel like a lot of you that there should be more college players on the team. There are so many magnificant college players out there that aren't on the team because of the younger high school girls. The reason for the younger high school girls being on the team is because they are trying to build up a solid group of younger girls for the future. I think the thing that needs to be changed is that they need more competitive international tournaments for the younger age groups- like u-17, 19 and then have the u-21's. It would help in the building up process.But the problem with this is we only have an u-19 and u-21 team, and this year they are only choosing one large team.
As for Tracey being a bad coach, I don't think that is so. She is a great coach, and it is wonderful that she stepped up to take on the position of head junior nat. team coach. She brings a lot of experience and knowledge to younger players. She is starting from scratch with these girls so it is not like you are going to see intant results.
The main thing I see as a problem for these girls was not enough training time together. A good deal of them played in the summer together in summer league, but they never held training weekends, or other sorts of functions together. I thought that that was very unsmart and that maybe if they all trained together the outcome would have been better. It is understandable though, college seasons ended just short of the tournament so it would have been tough to get practices in.
I see good things for US field hockey in the future, it is just a matter of fixing some small key problems
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miliARG
12-20-2004 6:37 pm
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to b
The pitchs can be a problem, but let me say you that here we haven´t got more than 50 pitch, and the half of that are in bad conditions and about the 70% haven't got the water sistem.......
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Manny
12-20-2004 7:38 pm
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Interesting
You are that but very uniformed of the National team and its coach. They knew of this tournament last year but have actually started the program about two months ago. Poor, poor Shiv. How can the greatest skills coach in the world be unable to motavate the u-20s. It must be the Harris'. Tom has so much influence with USFHA. Get a grip my brother. Some of these players have world class skills and given the right coach and leadership could actually medal in Havana. The great coach Shiv Jagday thinks it would be fine if we finish 4th, just as long as we particapate. Give me a break
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observer
12-20-2004 9:06 pm
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Re: enough
I will take responsibility for the GK comment. The problem with the whole system is that people are afraid to call like it is. We always hear give them time, they are young, they need to train together more blah blah blah. Fact is some of the girls were up to the standard and many were not. So like any other bug girls sport you CUT the players not up to the standard and get some others to take there spots. This team was a cross between the team after A camp and another team made up before summer league. I can tell you this. Many girls will go to A camp this year with the dream of playing for the national team, but unfortunately this group will get picked again regardless of what happens. Thie USFHA has a sad history the last ten years. Look at the last JR world cup, they finished dead last, this time if they qualify the result might be one position better. We need to train and play to beat Argentina, not just keep hoping that the next group of young hS players is the answer to teh problem. I call it how I see it and as I see it half of this team can;t cut it on the big stage yet get them out for this event and get in some players who have proven they can play. That might mean that these chosen ones might have to work at this to make the squad next time not just make it by reputation. So yes Enough enough excuses big girls expect toget cut if they don't do the job. The players not the coach is the problem in this case.
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Jacko
12-21-2004 12:18 am
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A continuum of Discontent
We need much better transparency in the selection process of both male and female players, We need INDEPENDENT selectors who can watch trial games and camps and not have to bow down to the National Coach when the National COACH excludes better players and replaces them with players they can control.
We need to be putting the best team on the field period. If there are U-21 fermale players at college level that should have been on the team ..why weren't they..who and what is the impediment. Lets identify the culprits and hold them responsible. The USFHA is only as effective as its members and should start a write in campaign expressing a " Vote of no confidence in the current President and administration of USFHA.
Get enough signatures and send copies to the USOC detailing the woeful performance lf your governing body.
How can we get any worse than we currently are now !
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usfha wake up
12-21-2004 12:44 am
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It's obvious
it's been said on this board many times before. Until the Usfha begins to develop a league system across the USA players will not have a chance to develop. A strong league system is required to get pitches to play on, sponsorship and opportunities at the club level for kids who can't play on astro turf at school. Once this foundation is built then comes the national team program. the USFHA is trying to create a world class team without creating the environment to develop those players first. So please wake up and do something!
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Just my opinion
12-21-2004 12:35 pm
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Youth hockey
Youth hockey development.
The biggest problenm is the current system is built on exclusion not inclusion. Instead of letting as many players play and train as possible the USFHA has a system that discourages young players by cutting them before they begin to develop a love for the game. That is why the passion is missing in the sport. The USFHA Jr national team programs and the futures program weeds out and excludes 100's of players before they are 14 years old. Then at the u16 level they eliminate 1000's during the regional futures tournaments which are the worst way to identify talent because the national selectors have no idea who is conducting the trials and the local politics kills many a good players dream. This results is the majority of players frustrated and sick of the system so instead of continuing they move on to lacrosse or soccer where the opportunitites for advanced play are years ahead. The Jr national team and future US team development are not even on most kids radar in other sports. In field hockey because the USFHA sells it's developmental clinic on the premise that is the way to the national team as soon as girls get knocked out they stop trying.
As for men the USFHA excludes them from most events it conducts. I see no boys at indoor nationals and boys are not eligible for selection to nationals through the futures program. That only leaves a splintered club system with very limitied opportunities if boys want to play. ie; Boston, NY, DC, and of course CA. USFHA needs to use the USOC power to get men involved at all levels and eliminate the discrimination they face. The USFHA should lobby for men to be allowed at all levels including HS. Stop letting the state federations stop the few boys who want to play. Over time the mens program will develop and the boys won't have to use girls HS hockey to get started. USFHA needs to be visionary, not stick with the status quo. And lastly get manufacturers to begin to develop new and exciting equipment, this will drive retail sales and result in the sport being more attractive to the advertising and promotion markets. This is a huge task and by focusing on these minor problems of qualifying for an event we have no realistic chance at winning takes years of focus away from the real growth potentioal of the sport.
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In the Know
12-21-2004 5:48 pm
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Everyone here, that has spoken on the matter, has chimmed in about the Harris' influence in Cali. That is a major problem with the men's program.Also, kids not showing up for shiv, kids boycotting a tour to Van. to play Canadian Jr's, which the us ended up getting demolished( 5 players skipped out on the tour) what kind of leadership and attitude does that show. Good talent, yes, good leadership no. This team could be alot better if they got their heads out of the sand. Get over the super ego's, lets start to play. get the core program out of Moorepark!!! Train down in Virginia, up north when its warmer, too much influence in Moorepark. Shiv and Coach Gabrial seem to be great coaches, its what they have to work with that is hurting them the most. Its young kids with to much power, put your foot down and let go! I'd be surprised if US finishes any higher than 5th in Jr. Pan Am's.....
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Peter Munsing
12-21-2004 9:33 pm
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Thread here compared with S. Africa thread shows need for vision
Yes, there are tons of problems in the U.S. However, we need to also look at it constructively. There are many useful thoughts, but they are obscured by a lot of unfocussed angst. Compare this thread with the 45 comments plus thread following the article on the resignation of the S.African women's coach. Yes, there were some barbs traded, but on the whole people exchanged thoughts that were illuminating and didn't devlolve into a long scream.
But buried in here are a lot of useful thoughts, so folks, let's start each advocating a positive program.
l. Club development--clubs need to have a plan, for the future, that includes youth. Few have these. And yes, it should include boys, and girls. We have too far to go to be excluding the few youth who are seriously interested because our concept of gender differences is about 50 years behind the rest of the world.
2. No one nationally is talking pitch acquisition, though access to fields is a huge issue.
It may be unrealistic to have a pitch in the US given real estate costs but perhaps an fh club could get together with another club? And yes, the loan idea could work but there'd have to be some collateralization so the loan would be assured of being repaid so that the fund could continue. Perhaps if each club floated the equivalent of a bond with its members, a larger club could swing this. Smaller clubs will have problems and I don't have an answer but maybe someone out there does?
3. If people feel uncomfortable using their names, OK, but maybe it's time everyone started thinking "why doesn't anyone want to publicly call things as they are? Why is everyone worried about retribuition? " If there is a reason, let's discuss it--what is the Stalinism that is inspiring this fear, let's name the aparatchiki, describe the apparat.
You have the shield of anonymity--do something useful with it rather than these extended cris du coeur.
4. Let's hear not just from US people but from other countries who've recently developed their sport.
5. Scream and rant at USFHA's governance if you will--hey, I do--but try to get around to a positive comment--OK, the situation bites, but what do you suggest to change it?And please be specific. We won't have funding like track does, so let's not spend another 80 lines complaining about that unfairness--it's true of every country (look at the article in PFH on the Australian medalist who has to juggle training with laboring and hope he can get together enough scratch to pay travel and build something for education and a family--sound familiar?
As someone said, we all came in different boats, but we're all in the same boat.
Good luck and let's resolve in the new year to each take some responsibiltiy--then we've earned the right to kvetch! Now that's worth the effort!
Peace.
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Davo
12-21-2004 11:52 pm
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Real Estate
Peter,
In most countries real estate for synthetic hockey pitches is an issue. In Sydney this is a big issue as one of the most expensive cities in the world. However, start lobbying your local municipal council. Want to get an idea? Follow this link:
[url]http://www.glebehockey.org.au/pdf/TurfSubmission.pdf[/url]
This field will be on a prime piece of land on part of Sydney Harbour.
First get the player numbers and if you can secure some open space for a grass field then work from there. Secure sponsors/grants, raise money from club members and borrow.
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For Real
12-22-2004 9:41 am
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things to think about
OK... the success, or lack there of in the realm of US Hockey can be attributed to the following:
On the women's side- The US has no style of play. No matter the team that the US puts together, there are traits of the university styles that these women play or coach for. The US, as it has recently done in men's football, needs to develop a style of play and then let the universities branch off of that. The university "style" of play is too North-South and very easy to defend (yes coaches, your game is too simple). While you may be successful with it against each other, it is because the talent pool is so spread out across the country, that weaknesses are easily exposed. Unfortunately, that can't happen in international competeition. It doesn't matter who the coach is, because they don't spend enough time training together to allow for that coach to do much other than show a few PC situations to them.
On the men's side, you have a bunch of boys that have never been involved in team sports prior to joining the hockey program. There is no sense of team... only a group of individuals that resemble the heart of the US Olympic Basketball Team. Are the Harris brothers living vicariously through the boys, possibly... should there be a second team - possibly... should the second team be coached by someone outside the direction of the National Team coach? NO! The unfortunate thing to consider is that most of the boys on the team have never played an organised sport before hockey, and because of the small numbers, they are thrusted on to the National Team stage. That doesn't give them much chance for understanding of what a team sport and role playing is all about.
This all boils down to one thing... In the US, there are too many chiefs and not enough indians... (to use your analogies). until the NO takes charge and puts a hierarchy into place, these issues will continue to come up, and all of these postings will continue popping up that state the same things as documented under previous "negative" results. The sooner that a full time WNT coach is named, the sooner that the women's program is straightened out. The sooner that more attention is given to the boys program, the sooner that Shiv has athletes and a team to work with.
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disappointed
12-23-2004 2:05 am
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Imitation as flattery; it's time to imitate the best
For those who can forsake the rancor for a few minutes, there are some really valid points that have been made on this board. And I'm afraid the problems are bigger than one coach or two goalkeepers.
Having watched top-level college hockey for several years now, I'm struck by the differences between the game as played by the foreign players and the game played by the US players on the same teams. To simplify, it's run and gun for the US and dribble, feint and strike for the best foreigners. Unfortunately, as the outcome of the games in Santiago seemed to show, the former is certainly easier to defeat than the latter. It's sad when I hear people complain about the foreign players "taking spots" from US players on college teams. My observation is that having a mix of players makes everyone better -- it certainly exposes the US players to a different type of play and there are even aspects of our game that can add depth to a top foreign player's bag of tricks.
What's too bad, and at the root of my disappointment, is another point made above.
So what if the US players on top college teams have worked like crazy to improve their play? If they aren't on the team already, many feel it's a waste of time -- and very BIG money -- to even go to A Camp. The numbers aren't in their favor and they feel used -- after all, even at $450 a crack, a lot of players have to be invited to keep this sinking system afloat -- almost all of them with no hope of making the squad.
Maybe it's time to have the D1 college coaches make the selections from their own teams. These are the most talented and most dedicated athletes in the country, and anyone looking at the rosters of the best teams could put together a pretty good fantasy hockey team.
As suggested above, it makes sense to provide more opportunities for younger players to play younger tournaments. Don't use the U21 team to train U17 players. It makes the US hockey look bad all around. That said, I'll be disappointed if the collegiate season is marked by the absence of these U21 players. More bad feelings among hockey lovers on the horizon.
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Tom Harris
12-23-2004 4:03 pm
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Men's Hockey
It would be good if some of those who are commenting, would put their efforts into developing more club hockey.
We need club hockey, not only for men and boys but for women to have a place to play outside of educational institutions.
The FIH has developed a great publication on Club Development. It is a step by step guide. If it had been available when hockey started in Southern California, it would have been much easier.
It should be available from the USFHA office.
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DH
12-23-2004 5:38 pm
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For real
What are you talking about as far as the boys not playing other sports. We have good athletes on this team. Most have played other sports, football, soccer. wrestling. What do you know about this team? I think you haven't a clue. All of these kids are hard workers and atheletic. Get on board and quit your sniveling about the vicarious Harris'. Do a little work and hockey may improve in your area. If you have something to say personally my email adress is olympics2004@aol.com Don't hide.
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CAPN MO
12-23-2004 9:46 pm
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observer's comments
i disagree with you it sounds like you werent good enough to make the team and the three you named played good in Santiago played just as good as the college players. i know this because i was there in chile.
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Peter Munsing
12-23-2004 10:12 pm
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Club development--coed needed?
I quite agree that clubs are necessary. However, perhaps because in the US we are a sports system tied to high schools and colleges, outside of a few track clubs, swim clubs, and rowing clubs most sports don't have an established club system.
Consider that Philadelphia or Boston are home to many hundreds of "alumni" field hockey players--enough that summer pick up games at two fields can produce thirty or more players. Yet there isn't an extent womens club let alone mens or coed.
Chicago must also have a few hundred former fh players but I don't see much of a club there--and I could go across the country naming more names.
Part of it is knowing where people are--to that extent, some type of national bulletin board broken down by region would be great--if you just moved into Dubuque, you could see who plays in Dubuque, maybe get together for scrimmages and maybe with nearby town players for monthly games--and so it could begin. We are a country of sprawl, which makes it more difficult, but not impossible.
Just as the commenter above said that colleges can learn from foreign players, maybe women can learn from good men players--and men players can learn some attitude corrections, manners, and, yes, skills from women.
It'd be great if USFHA dropped it's separate but equal gig. It won't happen so what's the sport in general going to do? I submit coed clubs are the way to go. The successful clubs are, from what I can see coed.
Then comes the question of grounds/field availability. Until that is solved, clubs can't move to having practices a number of times a week, which is what really ramps up the foreign players. Leagues are good, yes, but having time to practice is also good.
An old factory building that could provide indoor space would be great, but roofing and maintenance could be killers. We won't have public assistance for sports facilities the way they do in other countries, so I don't have an answer to all those. Anyone in N. America--US or Canada--seen a club with its own facilities? If so, how did they do it? Should be possible--my mind's a bit too ossified this week to think of it, but should be doable--we need a few "angels--" funding donors--to get it started, perhaps.
But perhaps we do need to think why we have clubs of many, many types but so few field hockey clubs. Rugby has grown without a youth base, without funding, with a high risk (insurance wise), but yet has grown. On the other hand it's better played on grass, as opposed to field hockey which can be frustrating on the usual fields that will be available to ad hoc groups.
Keep those ideas coming--I'm seeing a trend of concrete, positively oriented comments.
All the best for the holidays, and have a happy new year.
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former natl Player
12-23-2004 10:35 pm
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To DH's comment
Although there are undoubtedly some Men's National Players who have competed in other sports besides hockey (myself being one of them), calling them good athletes stretches it a bit. In all of the fitness testing, members of the senior Men's side are often parralleled in some of the fitness testing by members of the U-21's and even U-16's. I would hardly say that the teams as a whole are paragons of strength or speed. As to hard workers, that is also debatable. The fact that certain players formally complained that Coach Shiv was working them "too hard" may suggest otherwise. There is also a lack of a professional mentality among most of the players, who treat the National team as their birthright (primarily as Californians). Untill the men stop treating it as just a club and as an actual forum for international play, I see little hope for improvement. It was mentioned above that the team is similar to the US Olympic Basketball team. However, unlike basketball, one cannot just have a ball and a love of the game- almost universally, the people who play on the national teams tend to be rich. It has always amazed me that some of the players live off of their parent's money when they are in their early to late twenties- and they don't even bother with education or finding a job. Considering that Dutch national players manage to be students as well as doctors or lawyers, this seems like a rather laid back approach to life and hockey. It's one thing if they are practicing three times a day, but generally they tend to be lotus eating. And if some of them do practice several times a day, it doesn't seem to be reflected in the success of the team.
Perhaps if the team thinks they are such athletes, they should take a short trip to Coronado and see if they can handle the SEAL team workouts. Or maybe USFHA should have some DI's from 29 Palms come over to instill a sense of discipline into the players.
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real
12-24-2004 7:27 am
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why don't they just give up in the US. they are never going to be good enough and don't have the system or the people to develop into an international threat. anyone who is capable enough to contribute to the program is eventually weeded out. so save the money and the half hearted effort by the unqualified few that are involved in USFHA and move on!
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Peter Munsing
12-25-2004 12:45 am
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What cheer
Ah, the optimistic cheer of the season visit's us in "Real"(sic) saying why don't we give up. Is that the spirit of the sport? I guess the reason we don't give up is that the sport seems worth fighting for--it just has a few unique problems on top of the structural problems most US sports face. However, soccer suddenly grew, so if FH can shake it's "girls sport" image, anything's possible--lacrosse is growing, as are the other sports I mentioned.
This is a site dedicated to field hockey so we get into the minutiae of sports. For that matter "Real," wherever you are from, I'd warrant there are people in your country complaining about what a pigs' breakfast the leading lights in your country have made the sport. Take a look at the threads in this site dealing with India, Pakistan, England, etc--everyone has a beef about their own nation. Should they, then give up?
Ah, I see--a sport is only worth playing if you are an "international threat." By those lights, Argentina and Korea should have given up because it took them a while to get up to speed. Seems I recall when the US women were a bit of an international presence--so we should give up because there are problems? So much for the definition of "sport." If you can't win, why bother, is that it?
But trying to keep this positive--you do know what that means, "Real," don't you?--as your country must be perfect why don't you tell us all about what they are doing right, and rather than throw snide remarks at players in the US, a target so easy I'd think it was beneath you, why not make useful suggestions on how they can improve their lot given the situation as it is--by which I mean using self help, assuming that no national or federal or local governement body is going to help with money for pitches etc. (as happens in many countries--perhaps even "Real's." ).
In the meantime all is not negative stasis. The national org is trying to have some regional training sites to raise the level of play at the local level and get the better players together. Sure, there're holes in it--e.g. it has only US team potential players, which lets out of it good club players from other countries who happen to be over here, but that can be fixed. Point is, somethings are happening, perhaps fitfully, but they are and life goes on.
So in the spirit of the seasons, a very happy new year to everyone--even "real!"
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discouraged
12-26-2004 7:24 pm
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needless to say...
speaking from someone that participates within the USFHA...i know just as much as the rest that the USFHA is only in the development for money reasons. Starting from the very youngest of training, for example Futures- which in my opinion is a complete joke-, the usfha looks to get as much money as they can from girls looking to develop their hockey skills. at the higher levels, junior national and national teams, the system seems corrupt. almost as if the 'selectors' at A camp, know who they want on the team, so they pick a big team, but only are interested in the girls they consider popular in the hockey world. not to take anything away from the players, because they are very talented, but there is no reason to only have 3 junior national teams, with the u-16 team not hardly participating in any international events, and then the two older jr natl teams, randomly getting international experience. when the occasion arises that there is a tournament, the junior team consists primarily of highschool players, giving the shaft to older, and perhaps more experienced players. it is discouraging for the players not selected to this team, yet who produce noticeably on the college level. those that are close enough and have the desire to play on the Sr natl team, may not eevn make the team to play in the international tournaments in the Jr team levels, because for some reason the highschool girls are something to marvel about in a US program that has failed to qualify for the olympics for the past 2 games. not trying to take away from the highschool girls, but the chemistry may be better amoung the older girls, because they have had more a chance to play together and in a much more skilled game. the usfha should work on having more junior national teams, with more international matches. this way the teams could be smaller, with only a select number of subs, so that more girls will get to play, but not too many would be on the team, and not used because younger girls get picked over them.
the results in chile have nothign to do with tracey and her coaching abilities. just a combination of the US programs inability to focus on what is really the concern...the development and creation of a program that is going to funnel players to the national team that will leave a mark on the international scene.
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In the know
12-26-2004 11:43 pm
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Let's see if anything is done about the men's program when they don't qualify for the Jr. World Cup at Pan Am's...They can't even beat chile, which is the one team the us needs to beat to qualify. Im sure Argentina and Canada have a spot already, no the us needs to play for third it seems...Maybe then and only then will they change something if the us can't qualify...cheers
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Tess Ellis
12-27-2004 4:36 am
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Re: Enough
Just to clear it up for you. This is the first time I have ever written on this website and it certainly will be the last. If you truely know me as a coach and person, you would then know if I have something to say I would not write it on a public website, I would take it up with the person directly. If I did write a comment, I certainly would sign my name to it and would not hide behind a fake name. If you have a problem with me, please sign your name and I would be happy to reply.
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dwarner
12-27-2004 10:40 am
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tess ellis
ok, so it it aint really a problem, but, u never wished me a merry christmas...
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Peter Munsing
12-27-2004 9:10 pm
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Maybe the girls prog. needs some concrete goals? (men also)?
Good comments, but let's try to not merely identify problems--which is necessary--but to propose solutions.
You think you feel bias? If boys are so inherently superior that they have to be banned isn't it amazing that no national futures team/futures elite has boys? Horrors! The end of life as we know it! Unclean!
What I've heard and what I'm reading suggests significant disatisfaction with futures. Perhaps someone could get the ball rolling by suggesting some concrete goals for the program--each youth coming out of the program should be able to do what? And tell the youths and their parents, and their coaches "Look, we expect at the end of this 4 month period your daughter/son/player should be able to do the following............
I'd also suggest a problem holding back both boys and girls compared with other countries is that in the "off season" all there is are indoor leagues, and those have games only, no skills practice. Don't think the Australians, Germans and others only play three months out of the year.
(boys don't even get to play indoors in many venues--the catch 22 is they can only play coed in adult leagues, but can't play audult leagues if they are under 18. But then they can't play in the USFHA National indoors so why should non USFHA venues be different?)
As with the boys, maybe if the U-16 girls don't get to go anywhere someone needs to do some fund raising among all those who make money off of the thousands that play.
While I understand the emotions if it's perceived that USFHA is "making money" off futures (though with site rentals etc not sure what the net is), I think the focus should be "OK, you're making money, let's see product. What is this youth going to be able to do at the end of it?" That's what you'd ask a summer camp, I preume.
Another problem is that there aren't enough futures elite sites. The older/better girls waiting to qualify for futures elite sites or who didn't make it get bored, leave early, which degrades the level of play and drill further.
Perhaps another aspect is the "walking on eggshells "problem--nobody wants to be the one to suggest that the empress is sans vetments, so all it is is a loud murmur of grumbling. USFHA can honestly say "but we haven't had many complaints...." because no one wants to complain. Maybe some parents and h.s. coaches need to say "Please m'am, I think I should really have some more....."
Look, I see a lot of decent coaches coaching elite travel teams in the indoor season (boys need not apply to most). Maybe if the male coaches would stand up for their gender and if female coaches would stand up for their alleged commitment to gender equity then the boys U-21 would have the stick time ealier in their development and would have a better chance. Easy to criticize the boys when you've either done nothing to help them or excluded them.
And those coaches know who the good players are, and need to speak up as to why the selection process is failing them. Then, for the girls that can--and many can financially--maybe they should get some playing time in countries with the youth club systems our country can's seem to start, even for girls. And rather than kvetching, earn the right to complain by setting up those clubs. Be good for the adults, too!
What I see is tons of time and money being spent traveling to tournaments, tons of emotional energy spent on the tourneys by the girls, their parents, coaches, but is that advancing the game? Play is important, but skills development --basic dribbling and passing skills, modern strategic skills--are lacking. Some systems accountant out there can figure how much is being spent; maybe there'd be more bang for the buck if we used some of it as seed money to start having turf fields and an organized set of skills to make the use of the artificial pitches.
Other than those who discriminate against boys no one in the system are ogres--from my perspective, they're robbing the boys to pay the girls. So if the girls aren't getting their money's worth from people bigotted in their favor, maybe they don't deerve it?
Maybe also they need to be told "you're not competing with the kids in your county but the kids in Germany, Holland. Here's a video of them--that's the level you need to aspire to, not just enough to make the county playoffs."
So keep up the comments but realistic, specific, proposals for remedies would advance the dialogue. Then nail your theses to the door of the next USFHA board meeting--
don't mourn, organize! (And while you're trashing the org, don't forget to keep a smile on your lips and a song in youre heart!).
And have a better new year.
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sbrodie
12-28-2004 11:41 am
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Dwarner
Here's a Merry Christmas from me to you! hehe
Tess you too!
See you in the New Year!!!
Brodie
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young american fh player
12-31-2004 9:56 am
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reply to peter munsing
"I'd also suggest a problem holding back both boys and girls compared with other countries is that in the "off season" all there is are indoor leagues, and those have games only, no skills practice. Don't think the Australians, Germans and others only play three months out of the year."
...I realize that you are talking of the majority of people, but this is not all people. Indoor leagues is not all there is in the winter, or offseason. I play all year round with no off season and I play outdoor and indoor. granted I am a goalie, but my whole club team is always playing. My question is, isn't is solely up to the individual to seek coaching help if they want to progress? Yes, I believe there should be more opportunities to receive coaching, but I think it is up to the individual. as for the comment about the games only, no skills practice, this is also not so. My team and I are always working on skills. No, maybe there isn't a whole practice for just skills but there is time set aside for girls to learn new things. Field hockey, just like other sports takes devotion if you want to see results. It is a matter of girls and guys in the U.S getting out there and finding opportunities. I know that from seeking coaching and help, I have seen great results.
"What I see is tons of time and money being spent traveling to tournaments, tons of emotional energy spent on the tourneys by the girls, their parents, coaches, but is that advancing the game?"
the answer is yes! at least in my opinion it is.(everyone is entitled to their opinion). indoor is a fast game that greatly improves stick skills and helps on other aspects of the game. without it, I do not know where i would be. every little step we take forward is advancing the game of hockey in the U.S. Field Hockey is starting for girls and boys at such a young level now, which is great.
I agree with many of you that the futures program is just not where it needs to be! but really, it is not upto us. It is a matter of the U.S hearing our anger and fixing it. They know people are upset with it, so now they just have to do something about it.
-happy new year
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Jacko
12-31-2004 8:47 pm
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Lets take the collective energy and do something with it.
We have watched as both the US womens and mens teams world rankings have fallen through the floor. The mens team has been in slow decline since the 1996 Olympics and has fallen precipitously in the past 5 years.
The womens program spent over a million dollars and failed to qualify for the Athens Olympics having spent more than 3 countries who qualified.
We need to build up a solid league program that is played at least 6 months a year as it is in Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain. Women players need an outlet after they finish the NCAA system and need to be re-coached to rid themselves of the bad habits picked up at the college level.
If you watch the recent mens trophy in Pakistan you would see the skill level needed to succeed at International Hockey.
The Dutch and Spanish play was sublime with most players consistently able to dribble out of close marking situations. Having watched NCAA hockey and the current mens teams there are few players in the US capable of playing at that level .
Response to Munsing
West Vancouver used to have its own ground and surprisingly ( or not) have provided substantial numbers of Canadian national players (Milkovich, and others including the Late Great Ross Rutledge) . The Hawks club in Vancouver uses the UBC turf pitches and have a thriving youth program with 14-16 childresn teams and 5 or 6 mens teams ...Not sure how many Womens teams but at least 4 ?.
To the Moorpark Detractors.
Moorpark is not the enemy it is merely a place where male players have a critical mass to have a Mens Hockey League. As such it makes sense to keep the Mens program on the West Coast where outdoor Hockey is played year round. We also have a feeder program through the childrens age group teams which come from 5-6 clubs in the Ventura and Los Angeles County area.
Ralf Heuser has also started a hockey outreach program through Ventura County YWCA's which kicks off in January 2005.
As for the Harris influence..God Bless Tom Harris and the harris family..never has so much been done by so few for so many.
Lastly..dont slam Tracy Fuchs until you've stepped in her shoes . Tracy was a great player for the US who always gave 100% when she wore the red.white and blue. I'm sure she gave her best advice to the team and tried to impart some game smarts as to how to deal with well skilled Argentinians.
Wishing everyone in the Hockey World including Don Warner and Billy Davidson a Very happy New Year.
Jacko
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Peter Munsing
01-01-2005 1:19 am
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Reply to young American fh player
I'm happy that you have outdoor access all year 'round. Yes, there are indoor based clubs that have a practice session plus games. But most of what is generally available for the non-travel teams is just a game with no practice during he indoor season. As I mentioned, the travel teams tend to be girls only. For those girls that don't make the travel teams, and for boys, the reality is that what is available is all you'll get, which is at most one 40 minute game a week. Many boys can't even get that because of the way the indoor leagues are run, especially if they are not in the few cities that have organized clubs.
I'm a bit perplexed by your suggestion that getting coaching for youth is up to the player and yet changes in futures "is not really up to us."
As to getting coaching, for the youth player, especially the one not of driving age, that's easier said than done. Even if you get that, the point I was making was that if skills development is primarily during the outdoor season our youth players aren't getting as much as those in other countries. So if our youth players lose, that may be part of the problem--they are playing against kids who have 4-5 days a week practice on turf fields or similar, more than 4 months a year.
I feel if people want changes they should suggest specific changes. Don't just say "we're unhappy," say "your product need's changing and here's why, and here's how...." If you don't, you can't very well complain if you don't get what you wanted if all you did was express your anger without any specifics.
Have a good year and congratulations on your persistence in skills development. Pass it on and volunteer to help a 7th grade goalie.
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phantom
01-06-2005 9:59 am
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wake up
Wake up USA Men's hockey players! To suggest that the Harris brothers are to blame for the USA's pathetic national results is ludicrous! Whatever their faults, at least they have been dedicated to the development of Men's hockey for the last 30 years. If there were 100 Moorparks we'd be competing for Gold medals..the problem boys ,is lack of infrastructure and no club competition. As a former National team member ,I remember the frustration of going on tours, finally understanding how fast and technical the game is when played at a high level, only to come back home and play crap hockey and all thos wonderful skills we learned on tour would slowly vanish and only come back at the end of the next tour. So don't blame the Harris's or the players- you just cna;t get ghood with such a small pool of competitive players
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Old Timer
01-07-2005 8:18 pm
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To phantom
So who wrote a letter to USFHA to get rid of shiv and have dave harris and john the trainer be the teams coaches for Jr. Pan Am's? Oh thats right.....they've done alot of good things for hockey but at the same time, they "were" trying to much. As an old time national player, looking in from the outside, screaming mutiny at your current national team coach isn't doing jack for the team...
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CPothier
01-08-2005 12:24 pm
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The Harris brothers are awsome players. With pat's expirience and commitment to the team, he can lead this team to great things. Also being as young as he still is, has a long career ahead of him. Sean is following directly behind his big brothers foot steps it seems. Ive played with them both, and they are easy to play for, with and very fun to watch. I hope they can lead this jr team to the WC in July. Go get em boys!
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phantom
01-12-2005 2:05 am
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to Old timer
Yeas Iagree with you, mutinous backstabbing has no place in hockey but , alas its what turned me ultimately away from the sport and has made me merely an interested blogger rather than an active alumni of the FHAA. The problem remains, however, that the rest of the world is getting better while we are stagnating. Geez, we were better off with Featherstone or dare I say , even Ric Purcer ( RIP). The sad thing is that unless you actively search it out by logging on to websites like this you can go through the rest of your life without ever hearing about Men's USA field hockey again!
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