Wed 8 Dec, 2004
|
|
|
|
South Africa: National women's hockey coach quits  x45
 |
| South Africa |
October 12, 2004 
Mail and Guardian
> Page Views 1852
Andrew Hollely | Johannesburg, South Africa
The South African Hockey Association (Saha) is on the hunt for a new national women's coach following the shock announcement this week that Ros Howell has quit the job.
Howell will, however, continue in the position until the end of the year, after which she will return to being deputy headmaster at St Mary's School in Johannesburg at the start of the 2005 school year.
Howell had been given a sabbatical by the school for a period of five school terms -- to accommodate her appointment as full-time national coach -- and that runs to an end in December. She literally could not afford to have only an income from hockey, thus her decision to resign and return to the more lucrative teaching position.
The decision, while seemingly sudden, was always on the cards, but may have been prevented with a little foresight by South Africa's hockey bosses, who have allowed one of the foremost hockey brains in the country to slip through their fingers.
"I don't know about that, but there was no ill feeling that I know of, and I certainly didn't resign as a result of what happened in Athens," Howell said on Tuesday.
South Africa had been expected to challenge seriously for a medal, but their campaign came unstuck and they finished ninth out of 10 teams.
The results leading up to the Olympics saw South Africa beat each of the gold medal hopes -- bar world champions Argentina -- at least once.
Howell was ultimately left with three choices.
"I had three options. The first was to continue as coach, the second was to be part-time at the school and part-time as coach, and the third was to go back to St Mary's.
"I chose the latter because I had to look at my future financial security," she said.
Saha is an amateur organisation and simply could not match the salary offered by St Mary's. An alternative was to secure a sponsor, but that avenue had not been fully explored.
Howell's record as coach of South Africa, against teams mostly ranked higher, makes for impressive reading: played 75, won 43, lost 25 and drew seven.
On the field, Howell added an extra dimension and made South Africa a feared hockey team. Unfortunately, it all came apart in the heat of Athens.
"Athens was frustrating," she said, "because we had played much better previously and I believe we can play much better in the future. It just wasn't our time."
Nominations are now being sought from the various provinces. Individual applications will also be considered. The cut-off date is October 31.
Dave Carr, a Saha executive member whose main portfolio is coaching, said it was a disappointment to lose someone of Howell's experience.
"We are very disappointed, but we understand her situation. Hopefully, we can keep her on board in some capacity," said Carr. "We are hoping to announce the new coach before the end of November."
Howell will have a meeting with the Saha executive in Johannesburg on Friday, but it is doubtful it can lure her back to the job.
South Africa's next assignments will be against England and Scotland in the new year, when South Africa will play three Tests against each country. -- Sapa
Your opinion counts.
Rate this article or enter your comments below.
|
Opinions expressed here do not represent the official views of PlanetFieldHockey.com or its staff. Comments will be removed if they are considered offensive or of a personal nature.
Comments on this article
|
Hockey Coach
10-13-2004 8:39 am
|
Report this post
|
Look to the future
South Africa had been expected to challenge seriously for a medal, but their campaign came unstuck and they finished ninth out of 10 teams.
Had they finished b/w 5th & 8th position,it would have been fantastic.
I say fantastic because a top four pos was beyond them.I hears things like 'If we play our best every game'.We were HOPING to achieve a level of consistency we had not achieved before hand.It appears we were RAISING our game,like we did against Germany.
If we have to raise our game ,every game then our std of play is not quite there.Having said that ,its important to retain and improve the level of preparation undertook for the olympics.Thats just a year or so,not much can be achieved in a year;not in international sporting terms.
I believe we have the talent,lets actively seek sponsorship.Create a learning/development base for our coaches.I know its not all about paperwork,but how many of our coaches are trully qualified to coach our national teams ie juniors-seniors.The old boys club needs to be desolved.
**Bit concerned about some comments attributed to our u21 coach-'Learn to defend and you'll win the olympics'.It works for the germans because its an extension of the type of hockey they play ie slow,patient construction,with emphasis on possession etc.We are not that way inclined.In terms of style,i think we are more in the attacking style mode.Its like Oltmans trying to teach Pakistan how to play dutch hockey.Too different and not enough time from time of his appointment.
anyway thats my 2cents for the day
Ros we salute you for your determination through the years.In all fairness,you have another 4years.I think you were learning how to be an international coach and now that you know what it takes-have another crack.
|
|
Shelly Jones
10-14-2004 10:49 am
|
Report this post
|
|
A nice person - undoubtedly, a good teacher - apparently, but a good coach? I'm not sure. My problem lies with the Olympics and, as has been pointed out, the fact that we under-performed relative to the successes we had prior to the Olympics. What particularly irks me is the lack of imagination and the lack of courage to do something really different when in a corner. After 2 games down, we were looking down the proverbial barrel - Pietie Coetzee was having an impossible time, she'd been on for 140 minutes and had only scored 1 goal - Kerry Bee couldn't do anything right, she had a real shocker of a tournament - and there were others in similar positions, but were they rested? Did the Sharne's and the Pholo's of this team get more pitch time? No chance. One game later and we were in a worse position, but still no daring to give the juniors more time and stop this total reliance and dependence on (under-performing) stalwarts. At this point, Pietie had been on the turf for 210 minutes, had had 24 shots and still only scored once! And, from your website, comes the quote that Ros can't understand why the opposition are putting 2 people on to mark Pietie! That was unbelievable, bearing in mind Pietie's (justified) international reputation. Surely, if you've worked this out, you must realise this calls for a different game plan? But it never happened and that is why I think courage and daring were missing components - the courage to tell an experienced player to sit this one out and the daring to come up with the unexpected when faced with coaches that have studied your squad and neutralised your strengths.
|
|
Reply to Shelly Jones
10-15-2004 12:21 pm
|
Report this post
|
Maybe what Shelly Jones is saying doesn't just lie in the National team, but in South African Hockey itself! We completely agree with your view, but as younger members of a provincial team, we feel that it starts there. Instead of giving the juniors a chance on the field, the older players get more pitch time due to their name. Even when they are at they are at their worst they are still kept on the field. Whilst the benchies, who have fresh legs and maybe even ability, don't get anytime to prove it.
And yes we fully agree with your point of view about Kerry Bee. She was once brilliant, but has had her time!
|
|
hockeydude
10-15-2004 9:10 pm
|
Report this post
|
get a male coach
I think the sa women's team needs to be coached by a man, due to the physical politics that accompany womens hockey in general. This may sound like a total insult to women, but honestly, it gets a bit ridiculous when you look closely at personal dynamics.
The top womens teams in the world, Ausrtralia, Germany, Holland, China, Spain are coached by men, largely because womens hockey cannot throw off the shackles of these dynamics.
How certain of the women have managed to stay on for so long, sometimes despite horrible form and serious injury in the sa womens team, is a complete mystery to me.
The womens team were unimaginative, one dimensional, and with respect, built around one player, pietie coetzee. when she does not fire, the team look average. They should have let the junior girls have more exposure in that tournament.
Lets hope SA hockey appoint a male coaching staff. Ros did well, but I am afraid she was let down by ebing too set in her ways and by players who were not peaking and in lyndsay and kerry's case, are way past their prime and should have been sacked ages ago.
|
|
Hockeycoach
10-16-2004 9:55 am
|
Report this post
|
Easy hockeydude
While history may support may support your view for a male coach,I' cant comment on Kerry but Lyndsay.Hang on a sec.You clearly have little knowledge regarding her circumstances.Tell me who they could have played in her place? One of the youngsters?Which one?
I agree with a youth policy but this must be tempered with the experience needed to compete at an olympics.Look at the top teams and see what the avg number of caps was?Now is the time to open the door to new players,ideas etc.
I was hoping that our new national coach might be from outside SA.Personally think we are limited coaching wise.Need some international influence packaged in a south african way.Pls pls no explayers who all a sudden know how to coach.Get a proper coach.
|
|
hockey
10-16-2004 3:00 pm
|
Report this post
|
Hockeycoach
Just heard the there are a few good coaches looking around. Ric Charlesworth, and alyson annan to name a few. I reaqd that ric charlesworth didn't get a position within Hockey Australia and that Alyson is not with the netherlands team anymore.
Just a thought.
|
|
New Coach
10-17-2004 5:23 am
|
Report this post
|
|
NIC WIDES IS THE MAN FOR SA WOMEN'S HOCKEY - It wil be the hottest team ever to represent our country!! Long live Widey!
|
|
Shocked
10-18-2004 4:20 am
|
Report this post
|
|
Nic Wides? So it takes 1 IPT win and the man is ready to coach a national team? Remember, it's the future of South African hockey that needs to be considered, not the individuals and what it might do for their ego's.
|
|
another wides admirer
10-18-2004 2:51 pm
|
Report this post
|
|
nic wides has my full backing!!! he never fails to come right!
|
|
widefan
10-19-2004 8:14 am
|
Report this post
|
Wide-boy for president
How about starting a hockey discussion site in SA called www.wideboy.co.za?
Wideboy for president, dunners for vice president
|
|
Ms V
10-19-2004 4:32 pm
|
Report this post
|
Hockeydude...
'physical politics...personal dynamics' I didn't think that in this day and age, that an uniformed comment like this could come out of an intelligent human being. Perhaps I am still correct. No, I do nto mean this to be taken too harshly, and I am not flabergasted by the possibilty of insult. What your comment shows is an overall lack of understanding of this issue. Traditionally there has not been a lot of support for women to be in these elite positions, and this includes up the ranks. There is also a lack of want on the part of female coaches (in comparison to men) to want to coach on all levels of the game. This is the information that is coming out of the Aust Sports Commission. They have developed programs to combat the former issue (the latter is tied up to the first issue, but also many others). It will take time for the results of this inititive to be seen in hockey as well as other sports.
So this being said, you should be looking for the best person for the job, male or female, SA or not. Please, leave the gender issue out of this topic, and concentrate on the fact that SA have lost a coach of whom precious time and money have been spent upon, and the fact that Sa have some building to do.
|
|
Hockeydude
10-19-2004 11:00 pm
|
Report this post
|
Ms V
I am afraid, that if you look at the top national womens teams, there is a strong leaning towards male coaches coaching female teams. That extends beyond Hockey to other 'dual' sports like soccer where there is a need for a male personality in a female environment.
If you deny that there is interfemale politics due largely to sexual issues than anything else, within womens hockey structures, then you are living in a dreamland. No one wants to talk about it, but everyone knows that its happening. When there is a strong lesbian group in a sport like hockey, and there are 'straight' players in the same broader team, and this could extend to coaching and selection staff, such issues become important and then you can understand the need for this to be stamped out by ensuring male control.
I am not saying that this is why Ros did not succeed, and that all women coaches are not skilled enough to be in this position, its just that unlike what you are saying, it is a factor. Why are most of the top ten womens hockey teams in the world coached by men? Not because females are not capable of the job, but rather due to the dynamics which are actually quite unique in women's hockey.
|
|
Also shocked
10-20-2004 2:35 pm
|
Report this post
|
Solve the bigger issues
Surely you can all see that if someone has to make a financial decision to go back to teaching... the problems are deeper than the percieved "poor result" at the olympics. There is much more to this issue, so if "wideboy.co.za" (lets be safe and keep it South African (global players would go .com) ) can do a better job than Ros after one (out of how many attempts?) win at an IPT. Give him the job. Let's see how well he does with poor administrative backup, shoddy sponsorship management and players who are limited (no matter their age). Oh and by the way maybe he can influence the eejit editor of SA Sports Illustrated about how hockey girls also have skills on the field, and not just bodies that will sell his sad magazine...
If SAHA was run like a business would it be in the red or the black... I know I would't buy their shares.
|
|
Ms V
10-20-2004 4:58 pm
|
Report this post
|
I did not, and do not deny that there are ag reat number of male coaches, what I stated was the reasons for this. In the past the women have not been given the support they needed to achieve, AND there were less females wanting to achieve.
However, I think that you will find that there are a great number of studies in this area.
Hockeydude... I cannot... cannot believe you would bring something up like sexuality. Yes, I do deny that in 99% of cases a female coach beings a 'sexuality issue' with her. Wake up and smell the coffee. There are and have been issues with BOTH men and women in positions of power as coaches who have abused this power, either by intimidation or worse by action. Soccer has HUGE issues with this because the MALE coaches abuse this power by action!
I do not deny totally that it is a factor, I just think it is a hell of a lot smaller than you lead me to believe. I do not know Ros, so do not know her particular circumstances. What I do know is I have been coached by men, women, gay, lesbian and straight most unbeknown to me until afterwards, or during coaching due to their honesty. In my time, I have only seen ONE abuse of power by a female (by intimidation - and she never made it to the very top), however I have seen abuse by numberous men. I have also seen a good male coach fail desperately when switching to coaching women - it was appalling, and it was due to his dynamics with the women. There is a line, a code of conduct that at a national level I would be VERY surprised any coach would cross.
You have to remember that individuals will take every situation differently. One cannot say it should be a man, or should be a woman - you should be looking for the right person for the job. Iw ill reiterate, the only reason the top coaches are men, are that they had the opportunity, and wnated to take the opportunity. Research shows this, and most top sporting nations have state and national programs in place to balance things up. HA do, they have a program that helps female Level 2 coaches become Level 3, whilst giving them other skills and the opportunity to work with the national teams. In fact they are about to select their candidates eminantly!
|
|
Hockeydude
10-20-2004 9:51 pm
|
Report this post
|
Ms V
Athens 2004 Coaching break down, Womens Hockey:
1.Germany- Markus Wiese Male
2.Holland- Marc Lammers Male
3.Argentina- Sergio Vigil Male
4.China-Kim Changback Male
5.Australia- David Bell Male
6.New Zealand-Ian Rutledge Male
7.South Korea- Sang-ryul Male
8. Japan-KOBAYASHI Kazunori Male
9.South Africa- Ros Howell Female
10.Spain- Antoine Henri Siepman Male
Ms V, need I say more?
|
|
hockeydude reply
10-20-2004 11:49 pm
|
Report this post
|
What's your point?
Men are better coaches? or are do they just get more opportunities to coach?
I think it's women like Ros who smell the roses and decide that there is a better place to be. Why coach for minimal money when you have people like yourself with such "narrow" views. It's an intellegent decision.
|
|
Hockeydude
10-21-2004 2:06 am
|
Report this post
|
hockeydude reply
My view is as narrows as yours. Look at the facts as they stand. Female coaches are not succesful coaches of national teams, otherwise there would be more female national coaches.
Ros did an amazing job as the only female in this environment, but it is no coincidence that she was the only female coach at this competition.
My point is its not the fact that male coaches are tactically and technically better, its the fact that they are able to control these environments better. Not once did I say that women coaches were useful, my comments are directed to the gender politics inherent in womens hockey. Thats hardly a narrow view, rather its a broader honest perspective.
|
|
The L-Word
10-21-2004 3:34 am
|
Report this post
|
Hockey Dude
You ignorant prat! I was part of one of the most successful womens teams in the world and yes we were coached by a male. An intelligent one who embraced and respected individual differences including sexuality. Stamping things out (your words) was never on the agenda because we had an open and honest culture where people were accepted and encouraged to be themselves rather than critisised and unfairly judged. Cut the sexuality crap and concentrate on the hockey issues.
Also loved your list of coaches. Have you considered the implications of asian culture and the subservient role women play in it. Doubt you'll ever see a female coach in charge of countries like Korea, China, Japan, India, Malaysia etc.
Finally I suggest you read a book called 'The Coach' you may learn something.
|
|
Cabanna
10-21-2004 3:44 am
|
Report this post
|
Discussion..
So the Olympics was a dissapointment in general but we must never fail at becomming negative there is always a bright side to life - thank the pope and atleast we can learn from our mistakes and correct them.
South African hockey is still a unknown force and once we get our internal structures in place i can only predict great upsets in the international hockey arena! There is no doubt however that we were minotonous, unidimentional and lacked flair and creativity, we need to establish our own style of play.
There should'nt be a fuzz about gender and sport, but mabe a male coach could be the answer at the end of the day, because of their ability to balance out the emotional concept within a female structure.
I also agree that we need some experties from other country's as it can only broaden views and existing styles, finance is also another issue and mabe it's a good idea to assighning a foreighn coach but also assist him with finding a part-time job. Having said that i also think that potential coaches in South Africa from various provinces get exposed by assisting the head coach for a period of time that way the set-up with regards to team selection won't be a biased affair and the at the same time we develope our own structure (coaches', players).
Luckilly we can set things right and have something to build towards in the next 4 years it's a challenge but it's exciting in the same breath.
|
|
late contender
10-21-2004 9:21 am
|
Report this post
|
DUNNERS!!!
i still think dunners should be the national number one keeper and should have gone to athens but if he's decided to give his coaching a go give him the job!! with wideboy!
|
|
Hockeydude
10-21-2004 9:32 am
|
Report this post
|
Thanks for making the point
As pissed off as you sound at my comments, you have justified everything I implied. Your team (if you were a part of the aus womens team in 2000 as you imply) only succeeded because of the approach by THE COACH to face these issues head on and create an environment for them to be dealt with an a healthy manner.
Do you really think a female coach would have been able to deal effectively with that environment? All you have unwittingly done is justify my points regarding
a: the prevalence of lesbianism in womens sport
b: the need for this to be dealt with effectively by a male coach
Whats the deal with the racist jibe at asians...so its not fair to talk about gender issues but its ok to be racist? The large majority of the countries in the olympics were european, and every single one including aus were coached by male coaches!!
Stamping out refers to dealing effectively with the effect that the emotional side of such gender issues can have when not approached correctly. I have no problems with lesbians or asians or any other types of people that may play hockey.
|
|
Ms V
10-21-2004 4:31 pm
|
Report this post
|
Once again Hockeydude, you have shown your true colours. I will get back to the issue in a minute... but. Your views are unfounded, and are typical of (in this area, not generally) uneducated social perceptions. There is EVIDENCE and studies to refute your comments. Firstly, there is NOT a prevalence of lesbians in sport. However the lesbians in sport are (from research) more 'out'. I will refrain from continuing on the research that exists on this topic, needless to say that there are many misconceptions.
"Female coaches are not succesful coaches of national teams, otherwise there would be more female national coaches." Once again an uneducated and simplistic view of the situation. May I reiterate. HA, Aust Sports Commision, and FIH.
Repeat HA Aust Sports Commission and FIH (let alone others)have conducted research into this issue. What they have found is:
- Male coaches are no better coaches than female coaches.
- Female sexuality does not impede upon players any mroe than male sexuality.
- Perception of females 'emotional instability' is incorrect.
- Female coaches are no less professional than male coaches.
- Female coaches in the past and currently have NOT had the OPPORTUNITY to advance themselves into elite coaching positions.
- There seems to be a greater number of males wishing to take up coaching in both mens and womens hockey, than females wishing to take up positions.
Once again - it is for these reasons that prgrams exist (HA FIH) to provide the OPPORTUNITY for those females with the skills to want to coach at the elite level.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE base comments that are sooooo touchy on evidence and research that is out there.
May I add that as close in past history as the 1980's it was thought that females could not manage business' because they were too emotional. Public perception agreed with this, although research showed it was incorrect. These days business appreciates male and female managers, I know my industry is booming with female CEO's now that they are being given teh opportunity to have a go in the No. 1 position and not the No.2.
Lastly good on ya L-'Word. Must we remind you hockeydude - it was not Ric's maleness that made him great, in fact he was often in conflict (correct me if I'm wrong L-Word) with his traditional male views. He was great because he was intelligent, and open to everything he could do to make the Hockeyroos great.
|
|
just play
10-22-2004 3:50 pm
|
Report this post
|
to everyone
I think hockeydude was throwing out a worm and people responded, took it, the proverbial hook, line and sinker.
Just because there is a platform for speech doesn't mean that the people on that platform deserve to be heard.
Ms V, great comment, I''ve thoroughly enjoyed reading how passionate people are and how stereotyped others are.
keep it coming, both the well and the ill-informed.
|
|
g
10-22-2004 7:43 pm
|
Report this post
|
|
what about caryn bently as a future coach of the sa womens team-a quality player and a coach that has done a hel of a lot to improve the standard of play in the corner of ireland where she works
|
|
Hockeydude
10-22-2004 8:47 pm
|
Report this post
|
MS V
Answer me this one simple question:
Would a female coach have been able to deal with those issues as effectively as THE COACH did?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
I would also like to say that by using the example of Charlesworth and the aussie team of 2000, you are in fact acknowledging the point that I am trying to make:
There are team dynamic issues revolving around sexuality in women's hockey (Lesbianism-just call it that,why hide behind terms like 'the L-word', like its a shameful past-time) , that needs to be quantified, acknowleged and managed effectively. And based on current data, these dynamics are better handled by a male personality then a female one. Your research is not relevant since if you did the research on the teams at the olympics, you would see purely from the ratio of male:female coaches, that male coaches are better in control in these environments.
Please also point me to the studies you say have shown all these facts. I would like to see the criteria that were used in analyzing the information and more importantly the type of population group involved (school, club, state).
I dont think I am throwing out a worm or trying to be controversial. I am merely pointing out an issue in womens which no one wants to talk about and which obviously counts against women being put in control of these positions. If the women posting to the site are going to be emotional and not analytical, thats tough
In south africas case, this was the first women coach since readmission! Boudewijn Castelijn was the first international hockey coach employed to coach the national womens hockey team. During his tenure, the SA women went from roughly 20th in the world down to 6th in the world. He also coached the subsequent coach of the team, Gene Muller, under whose leadership the SA team moved to the 5th ranked team in the world. They are now ranked 12th?
|
|
Shelly Jones
10-25-2004 2:58 am
|
Report this post
|
I think you are all missing the point! Ms V, quite correctly, made the "best person for the job" point and that's all that must be taken into consideration. It may well happen that the person appointed to the job might be a lesbian or a horny man, but that doesn't matter so long as they don't allow their sexuality to become an issue. It is obvious that abuse of your position (pardon the pun) could happen and then like-minded players, whether injured or just out of form, get preferential treatment. Whichever gender the coach might be, the coach should never get so close to any players to then be in a position where he/she can't make an objective decision.
So, the selection panel must choose someone with people skills, imagination and flair and, obviously, an outstanding understanding of the game. They should also realise that there is a 4-year window right now and should appoint a coach now to take us to the next Olympics.
The rest is smoke and mirrors!
|
|
Kleinsout
10-26-2004 2:13 pm
|
Report this post
|
|
Perhaps Widey could be restricted to selection duties and utilise his undoubted eye for talent. I'm not sure the same could be said for Dunners, however his net, though not usually spread wide, was usually bulging. Perhaps a future in Procurement?
|
|
Ms V
10-26-2004 5:12 pm
|
Report this post
|
Yes Hockeydude.
"Based on current data..." I am sorry to say that someone looking at number of male national coaches doesn't qualify as research in my books. You actually have to ask WHY. And the answer isn't as simple as 'becasue men are better'. Just because the men are in these positions, does not mean that they deal with the situations better either.
If you doubt that research exists, or would like to find it, contact the FIH, or your national hockey body to get the FIH info. Also contact the Australian Sports Commission, the NSW Department of Sport and Recreation, the Western Australian Dept of Sport and Rec, QLD Sport and Rec and a quick search on any library computer should point you in the right direction. You could go further back and check out how women were down troden in Managent position across business throught the 80's and 90's, and would find similarities. These are the resources that come to mind, ones in Aust, however others can be found in the US, Canada, NZ. I haven't seen too much specifically in the UK for hockey, but I have for other sports.
You could also go to [url]www.hockey.org.au/[/url] Hockey Australia's website. Got to "Coaching and Umpiring" on the bottom right and click on "click here for other stories" and "Hockey Aust female coach apprenticeship"
WOW somebody has recognised this as an issue, and to get the money from the goverment, they did research, both HA and the Aust Sports Commision. Funny enough, hockey isn't the only sport to recognise this as an issue.
These studies have looked at grass roots through to Elite, as there is a natural progression, however they concentrate on OPPORTUNITY for female elite coaches. I am not going to spoon feed these articles to you as I do not have them at hand, but they are NOT hard to find, and you will find I am not fibbing!
Boudewijn Castelijn - great coach obviously. But his maleness is nto his crowning glory, I am sure he didn;t thank his sex when at his fairwell dinner.
Oh, and I think there are some articles from the Aust Sports Commision about lesbians in sport. There are also articles about male coaches, and the power they weild over female athletes, and abuse of this power eg lots of evidence from soccer. US also has research in this area.
...best PERSON for the job.
|
|
interested
11-03-2004 8:24 am
|
Report this post
|
is this a job application??
Hockeydude,
You seem to think that you know something about the 'issues' in the australian team. out of interest what were they?
The problem that lies with women being in the top positions is that they are at this point just not good enough. I hate saying that as I am one of those coaches looking to reach the top. players who play for years at the top then need to get experience coaching. women choose to have a career or children, men go into coaching. men can't do two things at once, Study and play at the top.
maybe men are better at this point in time, but one day there will be a ruch of top women coaches and then hockeydude can eat your own words.
your list of coaches in athens was correct, but was the level that great???
|
|
NZAnts
11-03-2004 2:55 pm
|
Report this post
|
wow. this is an interesting thread. I do not beleive that women are not as good as men as a coach. There is no doubt that women do not particpate in elite coach at the same volume levels as men. Simply on weight of numbers more men will be in those positions. The cultural issues also need to be considered when looking at current the current gender status of coaches.
NZ has also identified this as a significant issue and is currently completing significant reaearch on this subject to identify the issues from a womens point of view. Those findings will be very interesting.
Sexual preference is completly irrelevant. It only becomes relevant if it has a negative infulence on the team and performance. Charlesworth indicated an issue that he dealt with in his way. It is not the only way to deal with this issue but it worked for his team.
The key for any coach male or female is to establish a relationship with each player and understand them as people. this will then mean that any issues the individuals have can be dealt with effectively whether they are sexual issues or not.
At elite level we do not need women as coaches. Just like we do not need men as coaches. we just need the people with the best skills, gender is irrelevant. If a coach cannot be independent and objective in decisionmaking then they are not a good coach.
Any coach that is in a sexual relationship with their players is very bad and should lose their job immeadiatly.
|
|
Ms V
11-04-2004 2:24 pm
|
Report this post
|
Very well put NZAnts.
You have focused on the issue, and I wholeheartedly support you.
|
|
Philly
11-07-2004 8:07 am
|
Report this post
|
Hockeydude
It is typical, in my experience, for failed male coaches to blame their inability to succeed on the 'lesbian culture' in women's sports. They see it as an exclusive club, to which they have no entry - a situation faced daily by most women who operate in all other male-dominated areas. It is a tiny field where the old-boy network does not exist and that poses problems for 'red-blooded males' who like to exert their authority purely by shouting.
They cannot resist dabbling in the private lives of their players - when they would not dream of doing the same thing if they were coaching men. Again in my experience, it is usually the straight players who pose most problems - they have to be thin for their boyfriends and get home in time to cook his supper. We still, as a society, cannot treat sportswomen, who apparently only dabble, with the same respect as sportsmen, who are seen as gods. Also, you cannot tell me that the male sporting culture is a healthy one!!!
In hockeydude's list of male coaches he includes Kim of South Korea, who admitted he had no idea how to deal with women. He also included the Spanish coach, who finished below S Africa in Athens - does that make him better or worse than Ros Howell? Changback, the Korean who coaches China, is an appalling example of a man in charge of a women's team. Have you ever seen him in action, it is disgraceful.
In my view, South Africa have struggled in big competitions like the World Cup and Olympics, simply because you do not play enough meaningful matches. Sure, you win training games and four-nation events which serve to raise expectations, but you qualify for world events by beating Nigeria 10-0 in the African Games. No wonder it all feels so different when you get to the real thing. Putting a bloke in charge purely because he is a bloke will not help you there!
|
|
NZANTS
11-09-2004 1:45 pm
|
Report this post
|
MS V
you and i do think alike. By the way i am a male and i hate to think we males are tainted by some ignorant individuals amoung us.
Keep going Ms V
|
|
Ms V
11-09-2004 6:56 pm
|
Report this post
|
No worries NZANTS, I would never take one persons view to judge an entire group/culture etc. Anyway, we women love you men too much!
I guess apart from discussion (of which the forum is all about), I would hope that some comments given are taken as intended - for people to learn, and go out to find more information, and make their own evaluations from. If we can show hockeydude a different point of view, and open his mind up to other possibilities, then we have done the trick.
Hockeydude, I would love to know if you have followed up on the info given, and found resources and articles about the issue...
|
|
Interested
11-09-2004 10:40 pm
|
Report this post
|
USA
Interesting comments above. Speaking of opportunities for women, we have a very good control case to study. Anyone care to theorise why the US Womens Hockey Team is the biggest underperformer in World Hockey, considering they have more players than anyone?
|
|
NZAnts
11-10-2004 2:27 pm
|
Report this post
|
MS V It is good to hear to you still fancy the odd man or two, we are not all bad, in fact some of us a quite good at some things!!!!
I have followed up some of what you were talking about and have found some research on it. It is usefull as i am studying this subject curently and it is all good info.
The USA model is an interesting one. To me there are many issues but the main one seems to me is the lack of a coordinated approach accross the whole country. Each university runs their own program in their own way with no consideration to the overall good of USA womens hockey. It needs much better coordination for the full value of those numbers to be realised.
Dont get me wrong here i am not saying all university teams need to play the same structure, style strategy etc but at a higher level their needs to be much better country coordination.
The other issues seems to me is the one of administration. I am aware of the previous USA womens coach, an Australian, who is a good coach but had some selection decisions forced on her by adminstrators. this is very bad and a recipe for disaster.
what do people think?
|
|
Hockey Coach
11-11-2004 5:03 am
|
Report this post
|
NZAnts
Before we even delve into the subject of models,the key question is whether there is a South African hockey model.What does the National coach want to see happening at lower levels to ease his job?
What characterizes our hockey?
What is SA hockey all about?Does anyone know?Or is it a need to know basis,If so I guess I'm gonna have to move to Cpt.
US hockey:
Ummm,......exactly.Try apply for a job at a US college.I promise they dont give preference to female coaches.'Equal opportunity'.Yeah right.
My mates sister went there and her observations were as follows:
* overtraining
* more focus on fitness,conditioning
* dodgy coaching(assistant coach an Aussie,more qualified 'left' after 1 season)
* The concept of letting the players play doesnt exist-coaches gets too involved
* an avg player from the Southern Hemisphere would stand out
* No club structure
**Of course these are specific to her particular Div 1 College.Needless to say she only stayed a season.
Thats my 2cents for the day
|
|
Philly
11-11-2004 8:43 am
|
Report this post
|
USA
Actually, I don't think the USA underperformed at all. I think 9th at the World Cup was an overachievement given your college system, the lack of junior hockey, the lack of club hockey and the politics which clearly blight your organisation.
Still, like everybody, you blame the coach, send them packing and never change any of the above. And now nobody wants to kill off their career by working for you!
|
|
Ms V
11-11-2004 3:38 pm
|
Report this post
|
Hockey Coach and NZAnts
Absolutely. I very nearly went to college in the US having been offered scholarships at at least two colleges. I got to know the system of a few of them, and agree that the focus is WAY off.
What both of you mentioned are all issues hindering the US going forward. Unfortunately, those in key positions hold most of the power. Power in there own organisations, and power on a more national scale. Unless they relinquish this power, it would be most difficult to chagne the model - even though we ALL know it desperately needs it.
...perhaps a new thread should be begun if we are to continue this topic.
What are you studying NZAnts, and where?
|
|
Hockeycoach
11-11-2004 5:16 pm
|
Report this post
|
GB ladies
THe USA is doing just fine,with their limited structures,compared to GB.After the Euros,despite the semi loss,I put money on GB ladies finishin top 5 at Athens.No predictions for me.Still waitin for the roadshow so we can be told where it all fell apart cos it didnt happen over night.Who was the coach again?Oops,another female coach.KIdding,Im all for equal opportunity.If your good enough,sex,age etc matters not.The irony is Tracy(I think that was her name) did a mini presentation at the national coachin conference .She had a book she was reading called 'win or else'.Perhaps she was preparing for the foreseeable future.Clairvoyant.
PS;If there are any US Div1 colleges who'd like a MALE coach,leave a note on this board.
|
|
|
|
NZAnts
11-14-2004 1:19 pm
|
Report this post
|
MS V
I agree with Ms V this is a very good subject area for discussion. To answer your question MS V I am doing some Post Grad Study in Sports Psychology and my special area of interest is effective coaching of individuals within teams. This is throgh a university here in NZ. It is a specific subject but a very good one. What about yourself why your interest in this subject?
Power is an interesting area when it comes to sports adminstration. The power thing is huge. Just take a look at the IOC. It is clear as an outside observer that USA hockey suffers from this problem as well. What about Canadian Hockey? Why are they so poor? Especially the womens team. Is it the same problems in Canada?
I love these discussions
|
|
Ms V
11-15-2004 11:01 pm
|
Report this post
|
NZAnts - I'd send you a members email so no one else would have to read it, but you're not a member!
I have a Masters of Business in Sports management, although my thesis topic was more to do with strutures of state sporting org's, and change management. However I am a previous player and coach, and am a CEO in sport here in Aust. These are all issues that I have dealt with both professionally and academically so I always love to hear more. Sure because I am female I have come across gender items/issues and prehaps more readily read them.
|
|
NZ Ants
11-16-2004 10:02 pm
|
Report this post
|
Ms V
i did not know i could register. I will explore that further soon. My email is jath401@hotmail.com.
i would love to explore this subject a bit further as i feel it is an important one and feel the steps to resolve it are difficult to implement but should be idenified quickly and implemented strongly.
hear from you soon.
|
|
anon
12-06-2004 10:19 pm
|
Report this post
|
second "g's" proposal
I was just checking out this issue and saw that Caryn Bently had been mentioned as a possibility for a future South African coach. I totally agree, we should bring a person like her back home so that we can all benefit from her skills and expertise. She has done amazing things for her club in Ireland so what not let her do the same for us.
BENTZ FOR SA COACH
|
|
|
|
 |
HOME | FEATURES | CLUBHOUSE | CAMPS | LINKS | ABOUT US | STORE | ADVERTISE
Use of this site is subject to certain Terms & Conditions.
|
|
|
