Comments on this article
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10-07-2004 6:44 am
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If home nations where to be GB for World Cup and Champions trophy.... what would happen at a junior level.... i.e for junior world cup would it be england.... scotland..... or would it be GB?!
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Democrat
10-07-2004 6:58 am
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Let the people decide
I completely understand the national pride of both the Welsh and Scots. This is not always expressed constructively. I remember well one night in Cologne being woken by Scottish players returning after a few half shandy's. "If you all hate the English clap your hands"
Just two weeks later these players were supposed to play together !
Not the easiest situation for a GB Management team.
If devolution takes its full course then Scotland and Wales (should they democratically decide to do so) will become separate nations, presumably members of the Commonwealth.
At this point, they may compete as separate nations. Until this point, perhaps not long in the future, we all hold a single passport and as such should compete as a single nation.
I say, ask the people (Scots and Welsh) to choose their future course.
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Englishman
10-07-2004 9:00 am
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Pride?
Excuse me Democrat, I am tired of this bull about the Welsh and Scots having Pride etc.
So do the bl**dy English! If we compete as GB we will also lose our National Identity as much as they will.
and it is not pride, it is just a xenophobic hatred that makes them sing such nonsense.
Vote for devolution, give them what they want and play as Eng, Sco and Wales.
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Wenglish man
10-07-2004 8:22 pm
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Hmmmmm
As this article points out with 80+% of the players in GB being english that will mean a greater probability that the majority of good players will be english. However, this is only a base probability and does not take into account the possibility of a good environment producing good welsh and scottish players.
this becomes meaningless if the greater part of the GB administration and management is always english. English players work with english coaches more often than do scottish and welsh and so there is less opportunity for the home nations players to impress on the field or off. Some good players have felt so strongly that they have changed nationality. Does this not indicate that all is not as fair and above board as the english on this web site would have us think ?
I do not mesecarilly mean to suggest that the GB proposal is wrong, simply that it is by no means as simple as the issue appears to be made out to be.
If everyone stopped being so damn touchy on the subject maybe we could get some sensible discussion on the subject ?
just a thought ?
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Democrat
10-08-2004 4:00 am
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Pride
Dear Englishman.
I couldn't agree more.
Hockey should realise it's of minor importance in the grand political plan and let democracy takes it's course.
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Vilain
10-08-2004 5:31 am
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GB
Whatever Home Counties teams play or if they play as GB, nothing will change, as you will continue to lose in all the majors. we simply are not good enough. We have the wrong players selected & they are over paid, coupled together with the worst coaches and officials who are only in it for the mega bucks from the "Lotto funded payouts".
The GB side in Athens were a shambles, with most of the guys playing lacking vision and the basic skills to compete.
Our Associations should be kicked out and replaced by the playing hockey public, this also goes for the coaching and management teams.
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Anon
10-08-2004 8:30 am
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A wee note to ''Englishman''
Just thought you might like to know that it's not only the Welsh and Scottish that hate the English...here in Ireland we hate you too. And as a matter of fact that hatred is pretty much spread throughout the world due to the arrogance and ignorance of the majority of the English population.
In particular English sportsmen have a level of arrogance that makes me laugh. An example of this is the national football team. When are you going to accept that the only reason the Premier League is so good is because there are so many quality foreign players and that your national team is actually just useless and not unlucky as you often claim in the countless hours of moaning that is done in the media after your team has yet another hopeless performance!
But focussing on hockey and the matter in hand - no matter what arguments you may put forward to disagree with me - the GB team has always had too much favouritism for Englishmen. The selection process is a joke for players and coaches and it is undoubtedly biased towards Englishmen. I really do feel sorry for the Welsh and Scots who want to have a chance with GB because you will only ever fill the spaces left after the English have got their favourites involved and looked after their own.
In Ireland we no longer have involvement with GB and thank goodness for that!! We are not a top nation but we will keep striving to move forward and our junior sides are beginning to show real progress. However if we are going to compete at the World Cup and Olympics we only want to do it as IRELAND alone. How can you have pride in playing for GB....it's a cheat combining three home nations to play at the top level?? Spain is not a massive country and they compete well at the top level without joining forces with nearby countries!!!
At the end of the day - we are very proud people and so are the Scots and so are the Welsh and indeed you are correct...so are the English. But the English unfortunately have pride and arrogance going hand in hand and that is why we all hate you so much!
But we are also a very warm hearted country and despite the hatred we will still welcome you for a pint when you come to visit! So please don't take this as an opportunity to start a load of verbal abuse because I am just pointing out why other countries hate the English and don't want to be involved with them at the expense of representing their own country.
All the best.
PS COME ON WALES IN THE FOOTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Philosopher
10-08-2004 10:24 am
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Anon
Fair enough Irishman ... but let's see how may northern ireland based players jump ship when GB play all the big tournaments.
Also, if you are so principled, perhaps your lot should boycott the Northern Ireland Institute of Sport, which is supported by the British government and helps train Ireland hockey players to play against us.
I think three or four Ulster girls, and a couple of the guys, would have a very good chance in the GB set-up - maybe that's why you are so keen to suggest that nobody outside England has a chance.
Ask the three Scottish men, and even the three Scottish women who failed to qualify, how they view GB and I think you will find that they all had a very fair crack at the whip.
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Interested
10-08-2004 10:41 am
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playing abroad
Will GB support players playing abroad in higher competitions? Germany, Holland and Australia? In the past players such as Docherty and Matthews have been villified for playing in the top competition in the world. To help GB reach higher levels I feel this exposure to better leagues for our top players is key. Gerrard and Hawes are now playing in Holland so hopefully this will help to broaden the scope.
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Pip
10-08-2004 10:59 am
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Anon
Keep your stereotyes to yourself you bigot. You seem to think that arrogance is an English trait and yet you show it yourself in your post.
You also seem to have a tremendous insight into selection policies without ever being involved. GB selection is fair look at the athens side and bar a number of English players having a good argument for going it has been accepted that the squad was the best available.
I would suggest you keep quiet if you have nothing constructive to say or are you so arrogant as to believe you know it all!!
Lets stick to discussing the benefits of the proposal and not the slating of individual nations with gross over simplifications, it helps no-one and makes you look stupid.
Personally I agree with the athletes it affects let them perform to their best by combining for the big tournaments.
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anon
10-11-2004 3:29 am
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To PIP and everyone else!!
Like i said in my post - all I wanted to do was point out that the majority of English people particularly in the sporting arena are extremely arrogant - FACT. And also that these people are hated in Wales Scotland Ireland...and many other countries around the world - FACT.
Stating fact does not make me arrogant or a bigot!
PS Unlucky Wales in the footy. Beaten by the better team. Well done Ireland - not a bad result away from home.
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Jim
10-11-2004 6:40 am
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'
Anon - having pot shots at england/english does not exactly help such debates and as an Irish man it simply looks embarrassing.
Philosopher FYI - you will find that people living in NI pay UK taxes too and also they play the Nat Lottery similar to Scot, Wales and England. Such things are not solely funded by English tax payers.
I may be wrong but i believe only NI athletes are in the NI Inst.
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Gilly
10-11-2004 9:43 am
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A wee note to ''Englishman'' - Anon
A very balanced arguement - probably caused by having a chip on both shoulders!!
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Anon
10-11-2004 11:29 am
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To Gilly
I'm Irish and I would be playing for ireland if I were anywhere near good enough and I cannot play for GB even if I was good enough...so no....I don't have a chip on my shoulder. Once again I re-iterate for those who refuse to listen....I am stating fact and fact only. EVERYONE HATES THE ENGLISH ARROGANCE!!!!
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Philosopher
10-11-2004 3:32 pm
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Jim
I believe I said the Instiute was funded by the British government - ie the British taxpayer, which includes the folk of N Ireland.
It may be the case that only Northern Irish athletes use the facilities, but it remains a fact that they then trot out in Irish colours to play AGAINST GB.
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Peter
10-12-2004 5:11 am
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Anon you idiot!!!!!!!
"EVERYONE HATES THE ENGLISH ARROGANCE". Really sorry but I'm a someone and I dont! I'm an Aussie living in london and I find the poms damn entertaining. Yes they are totally lacking in objectivity, are wildy over ambitious and unrealistic when it comes to sport but I don't regard that as arrogance. Its probably closer to passion than anything.
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Pip
10-12-2004 5:33 am
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Anon
Worst kind of bigot, one with no idea what he is talking about. Keep harping on about English arrogance if it makes you feel better. To the rest it just illustrates how hateful you are.
You do not state fact you state your opinion there is a big difference - and I think this proves your own supreme arrogance. Going back a decade it was the stereotype that all Irish were terrorists, certain people now believe all muslims are hard line extremists. None of these are fact just as your OPINION is not fact.
GROW UP PLEASE FOR YOUR OWN GOOD.
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Martin
10-12-2004 5:36 am
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Childish bickering
It is very interesting to read the comments from all the parties above. One message comes through load and clear that the interests of hockey are the last thing on most contributers minds. It would appear that it is far more important that we slang off the other nations than actually talk about our great game and how we can move forward.
Having attended most of the GB games in Athens it was clear that we are now a long way off the mark. I would therefore say it should be the players who are likely to be involved in the GB team along with the coaches who should make the judgement on how best we can get back in touch with the rest of the world.
I fully understand the wish to retain the national teams of the three countries involved. However the Olympics is the greatest prize in sport and we should let the players who are good enough to represent GB have every chance of winning on this stage.
If the players want a united team then that is the way we should go however if they want to play as seperate teams then we stay as we are.
It is simply a case of letting those who are most affected decide how best to solve them problem.
It is interesting to note however that most other sports dont seam to have a problem with a GB team and in fact like the idea of being selected from the best players from the three countries. Maybe it is hockey that is frightend that some players may find out they are not as good as they thought they were. Better to find out on the training pitch than in front of the worlds eyes.
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English Devolutionist
10-12-2004 5:58 am
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Every four years I have to watch my nation's players compete for a "state" that is not their's or mine, but arguably a piece of political codswollop created to pay off the Scots' national debt. Despite providing the bulk of players and support staff, when in the infrequent occassions there are "glory" moments eg '88, it has to be shared out with the colonials who don't seem to want anything to do with us anyway.
Howabout the IOC finally recognises the existence of the world's oldest nation state- and we can finally play as England.
Anon- interesting that you should mention Spain. The political situation there is not dissimilar- over 80% of the players are not Spanish but Catalan and really resent having to compete for a nation that is not their's. They do it because it allows them to compete at the olympics. I wonder how many of the other home nations would even qualify for the olympics? Personal friends in both the German and Spanish olympic teams where somewhat scathing about the quality of the non-English players in the squad. Although for the record, my opinion on many of the English players is hardly favourable, with a tactical naivety and overall lack of direction and purpose throughout the squad.
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Anon
10-12-2004 11:20 am
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Ok ok ok ok. So I came on here to get a bit of banter and see how many English boys i could rattle!!! You're all right - it's probably not as wide spread an opinion as I have suggested...I was bored in work and fancied a bit of craic. All the best to each and every one of you who I have offended. Take care and good luck for the future!!
Regards
A humbled Irishman
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Tom Harris
10-12-2004 1:01 pm
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Three countries
If you all have the same parliament, the same king/queen, the same prime minister, all speak the same language (in general) and you all have the same external appearance (except for some immigrants) how can you be three countries in 2004? I do appreciate the history of where you were several hundred years ago. By the same thinking, the U.S. would be made up of numerous countries, e.g. Cherokees, Texans, etc. Should these entities have separate entries in international sporting events?
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Dissapointed
10-12-2004 3:00 pm
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This entire string
This entire string appears to be populated by ......well i wont join them by dropping to their level.
Now in response to the "let the current players decide" stance ........ !! what type of descion making policies are you involved in ?? The current players did not (women) qualify and made a poor showing (men) in athens, so what would qualify them to make such monumental choices ? None of them were Welsh (men) so why should they decide the fate of al future welsh players ?
Most of these so called 'debates' are simply a waste of everyones time, so unless you want to put forward a rationale point of few, supported by logic/common sense or sound hockey principles could you let the debate grow into something more productive.
Thank you
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real world
10-13-2004 1:44 am
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OK disappointed...what do you think? Or are you just going to sit on the fence and moan about everyone else and whatever the final decision is without bothering to make a contribution yourself? If its so easy to be rational and objective on this subject then show us the way!!! I think you'll struggle cos if it was that easy then there wouldn't be a debate going on. This string shows how emotive the subject is and its going to take a lot of discussions and arguements and slagging off before anything gets resolved.
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Decision Maker
10-13-2004 2:54 am
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Obvious Prososal
A few forgotten facts to start:
WCHL (England) pay for most of the GB program, to the detriment of our junior programs. I am led to believe that the Scottish U21 squads for example had bigger budgets this year than the English U21s - they certainly had a bigger program because the English money was channeled into GB.
The Performance Directors of Wales and Scotland were on the selection panel for GB thus ensuring equity and many POOR players from thgese countries were looked at, especially by the women.
The assistant coaches of both teams were Scottish - Matthius Ahrens and Mike Gilbert (both since shafted by their own Scottish association) to ensure equity so talk of there being an English biased can't be that true.
What I think will happen now is that the BOA will step in and say - 'if you can't sort this out yourselves then we will have a play off between the three nations and the best will go to the Olympics as GB'. What will the Scottish and Welsh players do then - I wouldn'rt be suprised is that some would jump ship. They have come out and said that they want to play for GB in a 4 year cycle - why deny them that and not listen to them becuase what will happen is they will start to appear in Engalnd shirts in an attempt to play for GB and who can blame them when the TOSSERS who run their sport DO NOT LISTEN OR CARE WHAT THEY THINK - ask Simpson, Moodie, Stott et al. Personaly this is the last thing I think should happen but it will iunless some attitudes change.
With respect to comments by the Irish on this web site - your biggest problem is the ability to play tournament hockey - too often blinked by this obsession with beating/hating England. Your U21 boys would be a great example - raise their games in both the U21 JWC in Hobart (score 1-1) and U21 Europeans this year against England and (lost 4-6) then fade into mediocrity with a talented group. You say we are aggogant - this is what everyone says about the teams above them - that is what the English think about the Dutch, Kiwis about the Aussies. Nothing different in football - what the lesser teams think of Arsenal and Chelsea. I can't apologise more about history and how badly the Irish, have in the past treated the Irish but what I can say is it isn't helping you the way you think and feel. Perhaps you need to ask some of the Irish players who play, or have played in Englnd the question of arrogance.
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Bob
10-13-2004 3:18 am
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Dissapointed
So fire away with your "rationale point of view etc etc"
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Jim
10-13-2004 9:28 am
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Good post "Decision Maker"
-- also without stating the obvious Anon's views would not be consistent with all people on this side of the water.
Instead as he put it , he was only having a wind up whilst bored at work, hopefully, he has now gone back to flipping Big Mac's and keep his ramblings to himself.
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Anon
10-13-2004 10:33 am
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To Jim
Now now now Jimbo - a bit harsh!! I don't flip the burgers - I just eat them! That's why I'll never get near playing for Ireland or GB or whatever the feck they decide!! Like I said just havin a laugh so don't get nasty!!
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Paddy
10-14-2004 5:15 am
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Anon
Anon.
I trust you wash the burgers down with the traditional 2 or 3 pints of Guinness.
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English Devolutionist
10-14-2004 7:32 pm
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Drinking
Paddy- I know that your comment was meant as a joke but I wanted to pick up on it.
How many people out there actually play hockey for its own sake and how many as a simple precursor to the 2-3 pints. What I'm saying that a culture that says "Oh well, we lost, mediocracy is ok, let's drink it off" is hardly conduicive to an olympic winner performance. Look at how much rugby has changed over the last 10 years and the results....
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Anon
10-15-2004 4:22 am
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Paddy
Spot on Paddy!!!
Saturdays are meant for a hockey match, burger, chips and pint(s)!!
Paddy Power at the Olympics...sure feck it - it's more fun drinkin off defeats!!!!
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Paddy
10-19-2004 12:52 pm
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On a more serious note
The trouble as I see it !! everybody wants control including players, management & officials whether they be Scottish, Welsh or English.
There are many very talented players in all three Countries, but when you have those egotistical managers, coaches and administrators who are full of their own "self importance" nothing can be solved.
I come from a long backgroung in hockey where in England everybody believes hockey starts & ends with the top 4 or 5 clubs in premier div 1 including LEE the Great Britian coach. (so I can understand peoples postings on this site) When did LEE last visit a Scottish or Welsh or English div 2 league side and watch !!. I have seen talented young players not selected for England purely based on them not playing for either a "considered fashionable club or school" Nepotism springs to mind !!. Please don't come back with the arguement that the talented players should join the elite 4 top clubs in each Country, as this is what is wrong with our sport, the top teams base on this arguement then only play approx 6 competitive league matches evry year, and yet again they drain those clubs who have trained and financed these kids through their mini sections to first team standard. If you maintain this approach only the rich clubs in all our Countries will servive. We lose talented players at a young age to other sports, and only have ourselves to blame, because we have these bigoted people controling the destiny of our sport.
I spoke to a very talent youngester recently who was informed he was good enough to play for his Country under 18 team, but was to young. The saying goes : "If you good enough, age is irrelavant" both the manager and coach of this team should be fired immediately. Somebody should tell the Dutch - Germans - Australians that selecting a youngster could damage their prospects of winning. Our over paid officials and those who are only in this sport for the ego trip is gives them, should all do the decent thing and leave. One more thing, nothing will change !! I will continue to support hockey every weekend and helping out at my club to coach the kids, raise enough money to pay association fees so the club can stay solvent.
Now I'm off to the pub hoping to meet Anon for a pie and many pints of Guinness.
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Philosopher
10-20-2004 4:57 am
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Paddy
So, does Jason Lee go and watch Reading v Cannock, where he can monitor 10 internationals, or Averageville v Nohopers in Division Two which is rubbish? English Div 2 is bad enough, can you imagine how Welsh or Scottish Div 2 sides would look? Swansea, the Welsh women's champions are barely surviving in England's Div 3!!!
Also, you forget that all the English National League games take place at the same time on a Sunday making it impossible to go to more than two.
It is not Jason Lee's job to find Under-16 players - that is the job of regional coaches and talent ID schemes. His job was, in the course of eight months, to work with players who had already come through the hopeless club and National League system and come out the other end without basic skills.
Get real and give the bloke a break. He is the least egotistical coach I know.
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Paddy
10-20-2004 11:24 am
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Philosopher
You got it in one (you must be smart) I never suggested he watched U16, however there are a number of talented players playing for clubs other than Reading & Cannock who would make his squad training if only he tried justifying is FAT wages and started looking elsewhere. Philosopher, I bet you are either a mate or went to Uni with LEE !!
Off down the pub again for some Guinness and pies.
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Pluto
10-21-2004 3:20 am
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Paddy
You really do have a chip on your shoulder. Jason Lee has been in his position about a year during which he has had to prepare for an olympics - he has the same 24 hours in a day as everyone else.
As is the way in life the individual is responsible for their own progression. A good player playing at a poor level is often found wanting when they make the step up. You cannot really suggest that a Div 2 EHL player can hack it at international.
You astound me with your ignorance and half cocked ideas, and before you ask I am not a friend nor uni mate of Jasons I just appreciate how hard his task is.
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Paddy
10-21-2004 10:52 am
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Pluto
Three of European national sides selected players from their number 2 leagues for squad training and for your information 2 made it to Athens and finished significantly higher than GB.
Off down the pub again for a pie and Guinness.
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Pluto
10-22-2004 7:24 am
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Paddy
Please stay down the pub and drown yourself in the black stuff. What argument are you trying to make?
That if we had taken Div 2 dross from England, Scotland or Wales GB would have done better.
The Irish way of thinking is a strange and wonderous thing. Its a shame you have made an interesting discussion into a pile of drivel. I pity the Irish with you as a spokesman.
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Paddy
10-22-2004 12:58 pm
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Pluto
At least I am prepared to offer alternatives !! You just simply want to carry on with losing as long as you and cronnies dominate the GB squad. Bet GB don't finnish any higher than 5 in the next 2 tournaments they play in unless they are prepared to look at why they have done so badly over the last number of years and select the best and not those that lick arse !!.
Off the pub for my usual 10 pints of Guinness and pies.
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Alessio
10-22-2004 9:23 pm
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Curious plus interested
Hi all,
Just an international hockey fan from the other side of the world. Curious and interested with this story. Anybody have some ideas to share and answer some curiosities?
1. If GB features in the world event and the Home Nations in the European and Commonwealth games, how would the world ranking collected in the Euros, justify GB's place in the WC/OG qualifiers? (e.g Will England's 3rd placing and Scotland's 5th placing or Wales's 12th placing affect GB?)
2. Another GB team that I know is the Rugby Lions. It includes Northern Ireland as well. (if I'm not mistaken) But in the related articles here I didn't come across any mention of Northern Ireland in the setup. So if Ireland (in hockey) is playing as a combined team, did we see a Combined Ireland contingent in the Olympic Games? (I only remember the Republic)
What would happen if Ireland is doing well in the Euros and eligible to play in the WC/OG qualifiers, wouldn't that mean the Northern Ireland players be deprived of playing? Afterall, the passports are different right?
Cheers all. Just a curious tourist ;-)
Alessio
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GEORGE
11-01-2004 3:04 am
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ITS AMAZING TO HEAR ALL THESE PEOPLE COMMENTING ABOUT ALL THIS LETS GET THE COACHES RIGHT FIRST THEN WE CAN DISCUSS THIS. TRY DURHAM UNIVERSITY !!!
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OWAIN
11-03-2004 2:21 pm
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Its funny how a little country like Holland manages so well. Cant imagine them joining up with the Germans to form North Europe.
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Youth International
11-19-2004 9:41 am
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My Experience
The problem north of the border and I believe perhaps in Wales as well is that there is a belief that our players will miss out on opportunities to play top level hockey (IE the world cup) if we were to compete as GB since there would undoubtably be less scottish players in the GB squad than in a Scotland side (obviously) The fact that our men don't qualify and women only twice (I believe) doesn't really come into it when your thinking with your heart and not your head. Players feel they have a better chance of helping scotland to qualify than of being selected for a GB squad that would qualify. As unhelpful as this opinion may be to the bigger picture you can understand where they are coming from. I am simply never going to be good enough to play for GB but there is a slim outside chance that one day I could play for Scotland, therefore my only chance of ever playing in a World Cup is if things stay as they are. (Even if it is only a slight chance) Personally I think that the plan to allow Wales and Scotland to compete at Europeans and the Commonwealth games and then as GB the rest of the time is the best way forward, but I'm just here to try and explain where some of the thinking comes from.
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x42
